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Searching for a heavy knit/woven with Sheen to it! Sykora 05-15-2008
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Posted by Bill Boyce on May 18, 2008, 9:27 pm
Samantha, you and most others know a lot more about the internet than I,
which is probably why I am more tolerant of others who may know even
less and don't conform to your netiquette by requesting a personal
reply, for eg. Casting the first stone, and all. I also don't think
these relatively rare events will kill a ng. If someone has something to
offer by way of a solution, they can just post it per usual and the
group will still have the benefit if they have the same question.

Instead some had no interest or ability to come up with an answer to the
earnest question asked, but chose to spank and belittle her with snide
remarks, even ridiculing her choice of a project. That's mean and
uncalled for and doesn't deserve a pass, although clothed thinly in what
they (alone) consider "humor". Same principle as the mean aunt who
habitually cuts up people but always finishes with a smile and "Bless
her heart".

As far as ng's going dead, I'm surprised there is so little protest to
the reverse of what happened here, i.e. the public posting of OT
personal conversations among 2 or 3 which could be private
communications. The usual rejoinder to that is: "You don't have to read
them, just pass on by". That sword cuts both ways; the request for help
in this case could be passed up too, but the temptation for some to take
a swipe at somebody was apparently too great. JPBill






Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply wrote:
> I am not threatened by Google Groups. I blame Google for not informing
> people that Google Groups is not like Yahoo Groups and that the bulk of
> "their groups" don't really have anything to do with them but are part
> of a community that has been around for decades.
>
> But that still doesn't excuse people wandering into ANY discussion venue
> and acting like all the people there have nothing to do but be at their
> beck and call, nor does it excuse people from not learning about basic
> netiquette -- such as the idea that questions posted to a particular
> venue that could be of interest to a large number of people as opposed
> to intimately personal questions should be answered on the same venue --
> or in the old days of Usenet when broadband was incomprehensible,
> replied to by email and then the person receiving the emails was
> honor-bound to summarize all the responses and post the summary on the
> venue they asked. Public message boards are not question boxes, they
> are DISCUSSION venues, and not only do you lose something when one
> person's answer can't trigger a memory in someone else to provide more
> information, but they go dead when there is no real discussion in them.
>
> Bill Boyce wrote:
>>
>> Maybe some here are feeling threatened by the emergence of
>> googlegroups. Maybe, they are being taken out of their "comfort zone"
>> of alt.sewing where they have a disproportionate percentage of the
>> posts, seniority, and a feeling of entitlement and authority.
>>
>> They tend to assume ownership of the group, patrolling it's borders,
>> enforcing their rules of "etiquette" they are delighted to dictate to
>> newcomers and ridicule them. Hens do the same thing by pecking in a
>> barnyard, heading off perceived threats to their status by new
>> arrivls. Googlegroups, by their diversity would be difficult to
>> dominate and star in, reducing their status.
>>
>> Just a thought to consider, prompted by this particular thread.
>

Posted by Samantha Hill - remove TRASH t on May 19, 2008, 1:05 am
Bill Boyce wrote:
> Samantha, you and most others know a lot more about the internet than I,
> which is probably why I am more tolerant of others who may know even
> less and don't conform to your netiquette by requesting a personal
> reply, for eg.

I personally choose education by direct email rather than public
castigation. I also choose to either educate spammers or report them to
their ISPs rather than castigate them publically depending on how
ignorant I think they are being (it is sort of obvious after a while who
cares and who doesn't)

> I also don't think
> these relatively rare events will kill a ng. If someone has something to
> offer by way of a solution, they can just post it per usual and the
> group will still have the benefit if they have the same question.

Little drops of water, little grains of sand.... and if you don't
encourage people to keep the discussion in the discussion group, it is
like not doing anything to discourage spammers or some kind of
disruptive or unwelcome pest (not that ignorant people are pests -- just
follow my logic here) -- if you don't do your best to discourage them,
they will take over everything.

> Instead some had no interest or ability to come up with an answer to the
> earnest question asked, but chose to spank and belittle her with snide
> remarks, even ridiculing her choice of a project. That's mean and
> uncalled for and doesn't deserve a pass, although clothed thinly in what
> they (alone) consider "humor".

To be honest, if you look at more newsgroups, you will find that this
newsgroup is relatively gentle on people who don't toe the line. I was
in the general dog newsgroup and asked a simple question and got
personally attacked by people for each little thing I said that someone
interpreted as meaning that I had all the potential of being an
inconsiderate pet owner, not raising it properly, or whatever. The
majority of them were too busy criticizing me for having the nerve to
get a dog when they had decided I had no business having one than they
were in trying to help me find an answer to my problem. The only funny
thing about it was that some people were interpreting what I said in
exactly opposite ways and were telling me that I should do exactly
opposite things.

> As far as ng's going dead, I'm surprised there is so little protest to
> the reverse of what happened here, i.e. the public posting of OT
> personal conversations among 2 or 3 which could be private
> communications. The usual rejoinder to that is: "You don't have to read
> them, just pass on by". That sword cuts both ways; the request for help
> in this case could be passed up too, but the temptation for some to take
> a swipe at somebody was apparently too great. JPBill


If you aren't really familiar with Usenet, allow me to share my favorite
Internet course (the one that resulting in my becoming all my friend's
favorite Internet guru) and recommend you read at least lessons 7, 8, and 9:

http://www.beonthenet.com/mapindex.html

Posted by Jenn Ridley on May 18, 2008, 12:56 pm
>
>Maybe some here are feeling threatened by the emergence of googlegroups.
>Maybe, they are being taken out of their "comfort zone" of alt.sewing
>where they have a disproportionate percentage of the posts, seniority,
>and a feeling of entitlement and authority.
>
>They tend to assume ownership of the group, patrolling it's borders,
>enforcing their rules of "etiquette" they are delighted to dictate to
>newcomers and ridicule them. Hens do the same thing by pecking in a
>barnyard, heading off perceived threats to their status by new arrivls.
>Googlegroups, by their diversity would be difficult to dominate and star
>in, reducing their status.
>
>Just a thought to consider, prompted by this particular thread.

Bzzzt.

Wrong on nearly all counts.

Not threatened. Annoyed and Pissed Off by lazy self-centered people
who can't be bothered to learn even the basics of the information
highway they are so willing to take advantage of; who expect that
there are flocks of people just hanging on their every word, waiting
impatiently to answer their vague questions with specific information.
Privately. With addresses and contact information for people in their
area -- without them specifying exactly *where* they are.

A person is not going to get any kind of positive response by saying
"I'm too lazy to do any of my own work. I want a source for this
fabric to fit these specifics. I want somebody in my area who will be
willing to make something for me out of this fabric for cheap. Email
me, because my time is sooo much more valuable than yours, and I can't
be bothered to answer any further questions or participate in any
discussions about this."

And Netiquette is not new, nor are the rules hidden or private -- I
was first introduced to it 20+ years ago. And alt-sewing is *very*
lenient about enforcing it.


(btw- you want "its", not "it's".)

--
Jenn Ridley : jridley@chartermi.net

Posted by Bill Boyce on May 18, 2008, 9:53 pm
Jenn Ridley wrote:
>> Maybe some here are feeling threatened by the emergence of googlegroups.
>> Maybe, they are being taken out of their "comfort zone" of alt.sewing
>> where they have a disproportionate percentage of the posts, seniority,
>> and a feeling of entitlement and authority.
>>
>> They tend to assume ownership of the group, patrolling it's borders,
>> enforcing their rules of "etiquette" they are delighted to dictate to
>> newcomers and ridicule them. Hens do the same thing by pecking in a
>> barnyard, heading off perceived threats to their status by new arrivls.
>> Googlegroups, by their diversity would be difficult to dominate and star
>> in, reducing their status.
>>
>> Just a thought to consider, prompted by this particular thread.
>
> Bzzzt.
>
> Wrong on nearly all counts.
>
> Not threatened. Annoyed and Pissed Off by lazy self-centered people
> who can't be bothered to learn even the basics of the information
> highway they are so willing to take advantage of; who expect that
> there are flocks of people just hanging on their every word, waiting
> impatiently to answer their vague questions with specific information.
> Privately. With addresses and contact information for people in their
> area -- without them specifying exactly *where* they are.
>
> A person is not going to get any kind of positive response by saying
> "I'm too lazy to do any of my own work. I want a source for this
> fabric to fit these specifics. I want somebody in my area who will be
> willing to make something for me out of this fabric for cheap. Email
> me, because my time is sooo much more valuable than yours, and I can't
> be bothered to answer any further questions or participate in any
> discussions about this."
>
> And Netiquette is not new, nor are the rules hidden or private -- I
> was first introduced to it 20+ years ago. And alt-sewing is *very*
> lenient about enforcing it.
>
>
> (btw- you want "its", not "it's".)
>
> --
> Jenn Ridley : jridley@chartermi.net

Sorry I hit a nerve, Jean. The parting shot on my errant apostrophe is a
dead give away.

Rx for the tightly wound on this topic: See my recent post about 10 min.
ago about "tolerance", double up on the Librium and chill.

JPBill



Posted by Jenn Ridley on May 19, 2008, 12:05 am

>
>Sorry I hit a nerve, Jean. The parting shot on my errant apostrophe is a
>dead give away.

You just hit another nerve. (note: my name's *not* jean)

<plop> into the killfile with you. I don't need to read more
justifications for not following rules of common courtesy. I get that
enough from the kids.


--
Jenn Ridley : jridley@chartermi.net

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